A consortium of police officers and researchers is promoting a plan to prevent so-called “lawful but awful” fatal shootings involving law enforcement. They have 30 recommendations for curtailing excessive force in the line of duty, from not shooting at vehicles to abandoning the “21-foot rule.”

The recommendations are contentious in many police departments. Denver Police Chief Robert White is part of the group that came up with the plan. He talks with Here & Now’s Robin Young about shifting police tactics.

Read the Police Executive Research Forum’s 30 Guiding Principles