Former President Barack Obama recently spoke with Aarti Shahani, host of WBEZ’s Art of Power podcast, about masculinity in the post-Donald Trump era. Obama said society has made progress in recognizing the most toxic elements of bad behavior by men. But now he wants to flip the focus. 

“What are the positive values that we’re trying to instill in our boys?” he said. “Showing compassion is not weakness. Listening is as important as talking.”

We’re bringing you this exclusive interview with the former president as a bonus to the Making Obama podcast series. Hear the former president explain his experience balancing ambition with family obligations and how he wants to expand the definition of what it means to be a man. And if you like what you hear, subscribe to WBEZ’s Art of Power podcast for more conversations with people who have changed the world.